The Relationship Competitors Can't Copy

"The biggest misconception is that product and pricing is the only thing that matters, and you don't need to focus on the relationship development as much." - Jake Cash

"Only 56% of independent agents said that the carriers they work with are meeting their foundational needs." - Jake Cash

"Agent satisfaction is over 300 points higher when they describe a carrier as easy to do business with." - Jake Cash

"Businesses that are easy to do business with actually write two and a half times more premium than those that aren't." - Jake Cash

"It goes back to treating it like any other relationship in life." - Jake Cash

"When you're sitting across a table from someone or sharing a meal with them, you get to know the personal side and it makes you feel like more of a team." - Jake Cash

"A lot of times it's just not putting yourselves in the shoes of the other party and walking through the day to day as far as what they experience your company through their eyes." - Jake Cash

"Carriers are sitting on a goldmine in the data that they have access to." - Jake Cash

"Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you feed them for a lifetime." - Jake Cash

"Any good strategy starts with some situational and self-awareness." - Jake Cash

"Lean into the human advantage, use AI in the background to make you more efficient, but don't make it a value prop for your customer base." - Jake Cash

• 00:00:00 Introduction. The IMCA Peer to Peer hosts welcome founder and CEO of Senryx Group Jake Cash to talk about carrier-agent relationships competitors can't easily copy.

  00:01:47 How Jake Fell Into Insurance. Jake shares joining Geico a decade ago, meeting his wife in the marketing department, and the origin of Senryx and marketing independence.

  00:04:33 The Biggest Misconception About Agents. Jake explains why carriers overrate product and price, citing the J.D. Power finding that only 56% of agents feel their foundational needs are met.

  00:05:50 Redefining Ease of Doing Business. Leslie and Jake dig into what agents really mean by ease, the 300-point satisfaction gap, and the two and a half times premium difference.

  00:08:16 Transactional vs. True Partnership. Jake describes how Geico's in-person planning sessions built real teamwork and why that personal connection faded after Covid.

  00:09:41 Where Carriers Create Friction. Jake names the two big unintentional friction points: weak AMS and CRM integration and unclaimed co-op marketing dollars.

  00:12:31 Finding the Right Communication Balance. Jake lays out three communication buckets: self-serve information, data-driven insights, and in-person relationship building.

  00:14:42 Must-Have Technologies for Agents. Jake shares the J.D. Power rankings for digital rating, policy delivery, and AMS integration, plus the arrival of AMS-to-AI connectors.

  00:19:03 Sponsor Break.

  00:19:41 Aligning Sales, Underwriting, and Marketing. Jake explains Geico's break-point system that let teams act on data without another meeting.

  00:22:08 Small Improvements That Build Goodwill. Jake describes giving agents 80%-ready campaigns and automations, like the unsold-quote automation, to personalize and run.

  00:23:45 Where to Focus First in 12 to 24 Months. Jake recommends a situational audit followed by focus groups across top, middle, and bottom agency performers.

  00:25:43 The Future of AI in Distribution. Jake cautions against touting AI publicly, citing the NBC study on consumer sentiment, and argues for leaning into the human advantage.

  00:27:26 How to Reach Jake. Jake points listeners to the Senryx podcast page, the free assessment, a strategy session, and LinkedIn.

Announcer [00:00:00] From the One Fire Studio. Welcome to the IMCA Peer to Peer podcast, where we dive deep into technology, brand, social media, and other topics with an insurance industry expert. Let's welcome today's guest.

Jim Flynn [00:00:15] Hi there. I'm Jim Flynn from One Fire, along with my co-host Leslie Castillo from the American Equity Underwriters. And it's our pleasure to welcome you to today's episode of the IMCA Peer to Peer podcast, where today we'll be talking about building carrier-agent relationships that competitors can't easily copy. And to help us better understand that journey, our guest today is Jake Cash. He is the founder and CEO of Senryx Group and the creator of Marketing Independence, a framework designed to help insurance agencies build growth systems they can own and control. Prior to founding Senryx, Jake led marketing strategy for Geico's national agency network, overseeing more than $500 million in media spending. So he spent a little bit of time in and around media, and he's going to tell us a little bit about that today, even though it's not the focus. Having worked across hundreds of agencies, carriers, and MGUs, Jake brings a unique perspective on how insurance organizations can strengthen independent agency relationships and create sustainable growth.

Leslie Castillo [00:01:29] Welcome to the show, Jake. We're excited to have you. Before we get into the meat and potatoes of today's conversation, tell us a little bit about where you're joining us from today. And it's always fun to hear about how people fell into the insurance industry, so we'd love to hear your story.

Jake Cash [00:01:47] Thanks so much for having me, Jim and Leslie. Really appreciate it and looking forward to a great conversation. I am joining from sunny and warm Loveland, Colorado, which, I don't know if anybody knows this, is nicknamed the Sweetheart City.

Jim Flynn [00:02:03] We know that.

Jake Cash [00:02:05] Better times.

Jim Flynn [00:02:06] And I didn't know I was in the Sweetheart City.

Jake Cash [00:02:09] There you go. Claim to fame, right?

Jim Flynn [00:02:12] I guess.

Jake Cash [00:02:13] As for what pulled me into the industry, I joined Geico about a decade ago, and as a marketing guy, joining a brand that is known for fun and witty comedy in advertising, it seemed like a pretty cool place to land. But as far as a wow moment pulling me into the industry, I don't think there was one. I will say I got lucky and met my wife in the Geico marketing department, so that is the wow moment that kept me in the industry. We now have a 20 month old daughter at home. So I don't just have the insurance industry to thank for my livelihood, but more importantly, my family. When I get opportunities like this to join a podcast or do a speaking engagement, or just connect with someone one on one, it always feels good to genuinely try to give back to the industry that I feel like I've gotten so much from. About five years ago, I actually left D.C., moved out to Colorado, and one of the core reasons behind that was just trying to diversify our income streams at the time. In the midst of Covid, feeling like we were both tied to this one company through some shaky economic times worldwide, it started putting that thought in my brain of, hey, if I'm feeling this way, I'm sure there are others who are too. That spread the impetus behind starting Senryx Group, with this core philosophy of marketing independence and giving agencies and other insurance organizations the ability to not be so reliant on one key source of income, one vendor, one marketing channel, one key producer. So looking forward to talking a little bit more about that today, and of course jumping more into the other topics that we have.

Jim Flynn [00:04:04] So did your wife remain with Geico?

Jake Cash [00:04:09] She has not. We both found new jobs since moving out here. She's definitely more the creative. She was on the brand side, so she got to go out to LA and be on all the gecko shoots and all that fun stuff.

Jim Flynn [00:04:24] Oh, cool. That's cool.

Leslie Castillo [00:04:25] We'll have her on for a different conversation.

Jake Cash [00:04:28] I'll tell her that she needs to. She's definitely the VIP in this relationship, that's for sure.

Jim Flynn [00:04:33] Well, you've got a unique perspective. You've worked with hundreds of agencies, and you've got the perspectives from the carrier side and so forth. What do you think the biggest misconceptions are that carriers and MGUs have about what independent agents really need? At ground level, what helps them out?

Jake Cash [00:05:01] I think the biggest misconception is that product and pricing is the only thing that matters, and you don't need to focus on the relationship development as much. And there's actually some data that suggests this is correct. J.D. Power did a study that they released back in October of last year, where they surveyed hundreds of independent agencies, and they found that only 56% of independent agents said that the carriers they work with are meeting their foundational needs. That was categorized as things like technology and just ease of doing business. Really, the fundamentals of making it easy to work together is where those independent agencies have had the most frustration.

Leslie Castillo [00:05:50] I want to latch on to something you just said, which is ease of doing business. We hear this a lot, regardless of the industry you work in. The epitome of what you want to do is be easy to do business with, and therefore people will want to work with you. Something that's been on my mind lately, and why I really want to dig into this, is do we need to redefine that? Historically, and I'm going to paint with a broad brush, being easy to do business with might mean being there when I call and having someone pick up the phone. I don't know if that's the case anymore. So when an agent says this carrier or this MGA is easy to do business with, what are they really talking about? What do they really mean when they say that?

Jake Cash [00:06:45] I agree, Leslie. We all live in this I-want-it-now economy where consumers can get anything they want in the snap of a finger. Whether it's Netflix giving you the opportunity to watch anything on demand that you used to have to go to a Blockbuster to pick up, reducing some of the friction there, or Amazon being able to ship something in a matter of hours to your doorstep. As consumers, we have that in our personal lives, and we feel like it should seamlessly carry over into our business lives as well. So to your point, it's not just being able to pick up a phone and talk to someone, it's almost even more than that. It's having the information at your fingertips when and where you need it, without even needing to pick up the phone. J.D. Power actually measured this gap a bit in that survey and said that agent satisfaction is over 300 points higher when they describe a carrier as easy to do business with. And yet 61% of agents say it's not easy to do business with their carriers overall. So there's a big gap there. They also showed it translates not just into ease of business but into revenue, showing that businesses that are easy to do business with actually write two and a half times more premium than those that aren't. So it's clearly a bottom line issue that can't be ignored at this point.

Jim Flynn [00:08:11] Well, two and a half times is a number that can't be ignored. From your perspective, what separates a carrier relationship that's transactional, just out there doing business, from one that feels like it's really a partnership?

Jake Cash [00:08:29] I think it goes back to treating it like any other relationship in life. Give you an example. During my time at Geico, I saw this done really well, where every year we would go through a planning strategy session where leadership from the marketing side would travel to all the regions across the entire country, meet with regional leadership and sales, service, and underwriting, and have conversations about what product was looking like next year, what the market was looking like as far as inquiries and new business, and decide, hey, is it a good time to invest more marketing dollars in this area, or is it going to be halfway through the year or third or fourth quarter. Having that meeting of the minds, and actually doing it in person, was really important, because it's so easy when we're on just the other side of a screen to almost feel like you're not even talking to a real person. But when you're sitting across a table from someone, or sharing a meal or a drink with them, you get to know the personal side and it makes you feel like more of a team. I think some of that personal relationship building has been missed ever since Covid, when we all started hunkering down and relying on Zoom for everything, for better or worse.

Leslie Castillo [00:09:41] It is interesting how the market always kind of corrects. We swung the pendulum in the direction of the virtual world, and we were all on Zoom and felt like, do we really need to get on a plane to go visit them? Let's just jump on Zoom. But you start to crave that connection. So on the opposite side of a positive connection, maybe there's friction. You mentioned friction before. What are some ways that carriers are unintentionally creating friction for their agents?

Jake Cash [00:10:17] I think the key word there is unintentionally, because I don't think anybody's doing it on purpose. And if you are, you probably shouldn't be in the business. A lot of times it's just not putting yourself in the shoes of the other party and walking through the day to day as far as what they experience your company through their eyes. So some of the unintentional consequences have really been that technology integration piece. Agencies have been really clear that if they can integrate carrier portals with their AMS and CRM systems seamlessly and avoid some of that manual work, that's not just causing them frustration, but actually losing them time that they could be investing in higher leverage activities. That's the number one thing that comes to mind. I'm also more of a marketing guy, so the second thing that comes to mind for me is co-op marketing opportunities. I know not every carrier provides those opportunities, but some do, and for those that don't, I think it could be a missed opportunity. Everything in life comes down to systems around incentives. Is it the carrot or the stick that you're using to incentivize? I think there are opportunities for carriers to use that carrot a little bit more to incentivize the types of activities they want the agencies they work with to do more frequently on the marketing side. To equate this to personal finance, any good financial advisor would tell you that if you're not taking advantage of a 401(k) match that a company provides, you're leaving free money on the table. These marketing co-op programs a lot of times incentivize agencies to do things by offering free money, but the agencies haven't been taking advantage of them enough, because the friction to get those dollars has been more than it's worth. So they're leaving that free money on the table because it's too hard to follow the guidelines or figure out how to even take advantage of it. So those are two buckets, marketing co-op and technology integration, that I would say are some of the more friction-based points I've heard of from agencies.

Jim Flynn [00:12:31] It's tough to stay in contact. There's the forget me, forget me not. Too much communication can be kind of overwhelming, like, okay, I get it, you're there. And on the other side, when you back off, if you don't have enough, you become kind of invisible. Looking at it from the carrier perspective, how do organizations find the right balance? And today, with the myriad of options available, what are the best ways to communicate with agencies?

Jake Cash [00:13:17] I would classify it into three buckets of communication. One would be what Leslie alluded to earlier, which is self-serve options, so you don't even have to pick up the phone and you have the information at your fingertips on demand whenever you need it. The second would be making sure that you're actually providing key insights as a carrier to the agencies you work with by providing data. I think carriers are sitting on a goldmine in the data that they have access to, and translating that data into key takeaways for the agencies they work with, whether it's the product lines that agency is focused on or the geographic market they're working in, and how consumers are interacting, or trends they're seeing in the data in that market, and giving them actionable takeaways they can act on based on that data. And then the third one, which we hit on already, would be in person. I think there's an opportunity for carriers, whether it's just traveling to the agencies they work with in person a little more frequently to develop those relationships, or incentivizing the agencies to come to them by putting on events that maybe allow them to learn from their peers, or get to know leadership at the carrier or MGA better as well. I think there are opportunities to develop those relationships a little more in person.

Leslie Castillo [00:14:42] Jake, you've mentioned throughout our conversation a few different technologies, for example integrating with an AMS. And something that all of us in the insurance space have heard, if there's a new technology or tool that comes out, is that there's a very easy excuse to make: well, the insurance industry is kind of behind the times, so the bar is really low.

Jim Flynn [00:15:20] Leslie, you're beating us up now.

Leslie Castillo [00:15:22] We've all heard this. I'll just say the thing that everybody's thinking. We all want to, but we ask ourselves, well, do we really have to? Because it's not like they're getting it from any other carrier. But the world is changing, like we've talked about several times in this discussion. So in your mind, are there any other technologies or tools or integrations that agents are increasingly viewing as must-haves? We have to have it, rather than, oh, it would be nice if they integrated with us, it would be nice if they gave us data. What are they demanding?

Jake Cash [00:16:05] Absolutely. That study I referenced before by J.D. Power actually has some insights on this too. They showed that 70% of agencies would rank digital rating and submission systems as must-haves, 60% rated digital documentation and policy delivery as must-haves, and 50% rated AMS integration as a must-have. So those are three buckets that, to your point, Leslie, feel like things that probably should have been tackled a while ago, and maybe in other industries would have been. They seem like easy, foundational, fundamental things that should be happening yesterday. I know there are insurtechs and other AMS solutions out there that are starting to tackle these as well. If you're a carrier or MGA out there, it might make sense to think about, do I build this myself, do I work with an insurtech to do it and maybe develop a relationship there to get reduced rates for the agencies working with me, so that I'm giving them an opportunity to see the impact of working with me even more because I negotiated this reduced rate. Those are two ways I would think about it. There was some news lately, I think from Momentum, about even plugging into Claude. I think they released an MCP, which is essentially a connector that allows you to prompt Claude and get insights from your AMS without even having to leave the platform. So I think we're heading in that direction fast and furious. AI is moving at an insane rate, and it's basically a full time job just to keep up with it day to day. We're going to get there, it's just, to your point, might be a little more lagging than some other industries.

Leslie Castillo [00:17:55] I think you're right too. And while AI can be a scary topic to some, the reality is most of us have become comfortable with it. We've tried out ChatGPT once or twice, at least. So it's not totally foreign to everybody. I think it's really exciting. I think this widespread technology is going to be integrated into systems that are long overdue for an upgrade. That's my Ted talk.

Jake Cash [00:18:36] I think you could definitely get on the Ted stage with that one.

Jim Flynn [00:18:37] I agree.

Leslie Castillo [00:18:42] I think it's a really exciting time, and I'll be happy when we as an industry don't feel like we're the one lagging behind others, that we're innovating. There are a lot of exciting things happening in tech and with AI. It's a cool time to be in the industry for sure.

Announcer [00:19:01] We'll take a quick break and come right back.

Ad [00:19:03] Are you looking to take your company's growth to the next level? Look no further than One Fire, the RevOps-focused marketing agency that specializes in helping insurance companies grow. Our expert team of strategists, marketers, and HubSpot specialists will help you optimize your marketing efforts and maximize your ROI, from lead generation to conversion and retention. One Fire has you covered with our deep insurance industry expertise and modern approach to growth. Don't let your competitors leave you in the dust. Ignite your growth with One Fire. Visit us today at gunfire.com.

Jim Flynn [00:19:41] You've heard me say this before, that marketing is from Mars and often sales is from Venus, for a variety of reasons. As you look at this, how can carriers and MGUs better align sales with underwriting, and marketing with underwriting and sales? They often are not even in the same zip code. What does that look like? What's the best way to make that happen?

Jake Cash [00:20:19] It's really easy to operate in silos when we're all in different core competencies. One thing I learned when I was on the carrier side at Geico is we used to have this monthly strategy session where we would go market by market across the country and look at key data. So loss ratios, inquiry volume, do business performance. Then we would combine that business data with channel costs, so we would look at CPMs of certain digital marketing tactics, or cost per acquisition of certain tactics, combined with how easy it was to turn on and off different marketing levers. We used break points to decide, okay, if this market has this loss ratio, it gets just very hyper-targeted digital marketing tactics that are meant to attract our ideal policyholder. If it's even more profitable, then we turn on this next lever. And finally, if it's an A plus market, we're going all out. We're turning on out of home, which is really expensive and hard to turn on and off, we're turning on radio and TV, which back in the day was even more important than streaming is now. That was a good example of a process that existed because it was developed alongside leaders in sales and underwriting to decide that these break points are what could make that decision without even having to hop on a call or meeting with those leaders. So basically having those conversations up front, so that when the trigger happens to make a new decision, you don't have to have that conversation again. It's already been had, and everyone can get to work right away to make the decisions that need to be made.

Leslie Castillo [00:22:08] So what are some examples of small operational or marketing improvements that can create goodwill with independent agents?

Jake Cash [00:22:17] I think this goes back to the analogy of give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, or teach a man to fish, and you feed them for a lifetime. I think there's an opportunity for carriers and MGAs, with the new tools that are available to us with AI right now, to actually build campaigns, automations, and resources that maybe aren't 100% fully baked and personalized for the agencies they're working with, but maybe they're 80% of the way there, and they're able to give it to them out of goodwill as added value, and let the agencies take it from there, personalize it, and put those campaigns into place. An example that comes to mind is a campaign we used to call an unsold-quote automation. Say that you tried to win a prospect 11 months ago. It's a commercial policy that renews every year. That prospect is probably up for renewal in the next month or so. We need to have systems in place that are automatically flagging to our sales teams that, hey, outreach should be happening, here are the channels you should be using, here's the messaging that's already developed that maybe you just have to personalize that extra 10 to 20% and you're on your way. I think some of those automations or campaigns are things that carriers could provide at scale to the agencies they work with, and allow the agencies to take it and run with it and put their spin on it before they execute.

Jim Flynn [00:23:45] So if you were advising a large or even a midsize organization that's in the B2B space and property and casualty, where would you focus first to build a stronger relationship with the independent agents, say in the 12 to 24 month time frame?

Jake Cash [00:24:10] I think any good strategy starts with some situational and self-awareness. So I would first do an assessment and audit of where that relationship stands currently. What resources do I have available to me to make that relationship better? What are my strengths and weaknesses, and how does that relate to my target audience and the messaging that I have available to me? Now that I've given you a kind of non-answer answer, I'll try to actually answer the question.

Jim Flynn [00:24:39] It is a good answer. Those are valid things to think about. Situational awareness is really good to have.

Jake Cash [00:24:51] It starts with self-awareness, for sure. But I do think there's an opportunity for more, again, putting yourself in the shoes of the other party here. There's a lot of good data I've referenced earlier in this conversation, but I think you could get more specific by even doing some focus groups. So I would recommend splitting up the agency force you work with into three different buckets, maybe your top performing group, your middle performers, and your bottom performers, and getting a cohort together in each of those buckets and having candid conversations with them about, hey, what can we do to make your life easier? What are we not doing right now that you see as table stakes that we should have been doing five years ago? And are there any new ideas that you have that we could take and run with? I think you'd be surprised at what those conversations could unearth, and some of the ideas that could pop up out of them.

Leslie Castillo [00:25:43] So looking ahead, as you think about AI and how carrier-agent relationships are going to evolve as tools like automation and self-service become more common, a lot of the things we've talked about today, how do you think those relationships are going to evolve, and how are those tools going to continue to reshape insurance distribution?

Jake Cash [00:26:06] I think where I see the majority of what people are focused on right now, and it seems like the easiest section to move on, is that back-end operational piece. It makes sense, because it's the things that aren't high leverage activities, that a junior analyst or even an intern could potentially do, and maybe it just needs to have a human in the loop for approvals or a smell check before something goes live. Where we need to be cautious, though, is there was a study done by NBC back in March that showed only 26% of consumers in the US have a positive view of AI currently. So where I see potential for people getting out over their skis is by touting their AI use publicly to their customer base, thinking that is showing they're on the cutting edge, when in reality I think people still want that human connection. They assume that you're using AI in the background. They don't want you to talk about it because it's not a messaging point they really care about. I think there's an opportunity here to lean into the human advantage, use AI in the background to make you more efficient, but don't make it a value prop for your customer base.

Jim Flynn [00:27:26] Those are some great insights. And you're right, everybody's trying to beat the AI drum, like, oh, we're more AI than the other guys. How about being a little more human than the other guys?

Jake Cash [00:27:41] How many times can I put AI in my business name?

Jim Flynn [00:27:43] Right. And my website, which is AI, of course. These are some great insights, really good stuff. If our listeners would like to reach out to you to pick your brain about this, what's the best way for them to do so?

Jake Cash [00:28:03] Thanks so much for having me, Jim and Leslie. If you'd like to learn more about anything we discussed today, you can head on over to our website. It's senryx.com/podcast. We have free resources available there, including a marketing checklist and a free two-minute assessment where you can get an idea of how vulnerable your marketing systems are. Most agencies I've talked to are surprised by the outcome after taking that assessment. You can also find a link there to book a free strategy session with me if you'd like, or I would always just love to connect on LinkedIn. You can search me. My name is Jake Cash. That's just like the money, Cash.

Jim Flynn [00:28:52] I love it. That is a wrap for today's episode of the Peer to Peer podcast, and we hope you've gained valuable insights into building carrier and agency relationships that competitors can't easily copy. If you've enjoyed today's episode, please don't forget to subscribe and give us a five star rating and leave us a review. Leaving us a review helps us reach more listeners like you. Once again, this is Jim Flynn from One Fire, along with my co-host Leslie Castillo from the American Equity Underwriters. It's been an honor and our pleasure to spend this time together, along with our guest, Jake Cash. Thanks again, Jake, for being part of today's episode of the Peer to Peer podcast.

Jake Cash [00:29:38] Thanks for having me.

Announcer [00:29:39] The Peer to Peer podcast is a presentation of IMCA. To learn more about today's episode and listen to other episodes, visit IMCA.net. This has been a production of One Fire.